Re: seperate xfree project on sourceforge

["Matthew Donald" <matthew dot donald at motile dot net>]

Hi,

I been keeping winfree86 with a very low profile since its still not really
ready for release even as alpha code.  However since Ralf Habacker stumbled
across it, it's time to 'fess up.

Winfree86 does not fork either the cygwin or xfree codebase.  It is much
more akin to a distribution rather than new product.

Yes, winfree86 does contain some new code, but I can't see how it can easily
be incorporated into the existing project.  The problem is that this code is
built using proprietary tools.  Although winfree86 is GPL'ed, it isn't a
clean GPL.

Why?  Well, integrating xfree into win32 cleanly is going involve COM
objects.  AFAIK, gcc doesn't support COM (and the thought of doing COM in
raw C is pretty revolting). Gcc wont work with MFC or ATL, and anyway both
of those involve Microsoft licenses.  So that leaves a choice of using a
Microsoft/Borland C compiler (do any other C compilers come with a MFC/ATL
license?) or using a high-level language such as VB or Delphi.

I've chosen Delphi because (a) I've got it and I'm comfortable with it; (b)
it's a great prototyping language, and at this stage of winfree86's life I'm
doing lots of prototyping.  The choice of delphi can and probably will
change in the future, probably to C/ATL 'cause mfc is even more bloated than
delphi. BTW, I considered c++ builder, but I rejected it (even though
starting in C will make later migration lots easier) for two reasons: the
version I've got (v3) has COM-related bugs which are very annoying; and
starting in delphi will force a *complete* rewrite later, and I'm a great
believer in Fred Brooks dictum of 'planning to throw one away'.

OK, so what does winfree86 do?

Firstly it is a *very* cut down version of cygwin + xfree.  The aim is to
get its' size down to 3-4mb.  Actually, eventually there will probably be
two versions of winfree86: a 'slim' version (3-4mb) which only provides an
x-server; and a 'full' version (10-16mb) which provides xfree, xvnc,
rdesktop (or tsc), telnet (and ssh) and tn3270.

So, secondly, winfree86 is not limited to xfree.  It will provide other
types of desktop connections. The idea is that the user has a folder of
remote desktop objects.  These could be remote unices (x sever), win32
(rdesktop/tsc), boxen (vnc), routers/appliances (telnet/ssh) or mainframes
(tn3270).  A user can open the winfree86 folder, double-click on a remote
system icon and go directly to the system.  They can create a remote desktop
by being prompted through a wizard or dialog.  They don't have to worry
about command line options, getting xfree and ssh working together, the
differences between xfree and vnc etc.  It will all be dumbed-down and
hidden from them.

Winfree86 specifically aims to run multiple instances of xfree at the same
time.  If the user wants to log onto two linux boxes, then they open two
separate desktops.

There are two user senarios I have in mind: sysadmins who have a who bunch
of diverse systems to administer; and users who have an existing win32 boxes
who need to access linux or mainframes.  Specifically, I'm interested in
recycling win95/98 licenses and older hardware, with users accessing an
office suite (using wordperfect) through linux.  It's an awful lot cheaper
to put a high-end server running a 100-user license of wordperfect (about
US$16k for the server hardware/software, using existing workstations)
instead of 300 new licenses of Office/XP (about US$65k for software plus
hardware costs).  This is the sort of senario which may well propel linux
out onto 'desktops' (the actual workstation will run win32, but the
application will run under linux).

The whole idea is to have a drop in X product which can be deployed onto
workstations, instead of having to license a commercial x-server such as
Hummingbird, X-thin/Pro, X-Win32 or even MI/X.  The cost of the commercial
x-server license kills the economics of having an office-suite server with
win32 clients (the senario would still work with a linux thin-client, but
most organisations are reluctant to move away from win32 on the desktop; got
to get them to move one step at a time...).

If you look at http://winfree86.sourceforge.net/images/screen.jpg, you can
see a screenshot of winfree86.  It shows the winfree86 folder with two
remote desktops (my two linux servers) with a connection to 'alan' open in
the background.  The output from xfree has been intercepted (xfree runs as a
child process of winfree86, which captures the output through a pipe) and is
shown in a separate dialog box.  This is usually hidden and can be popped-up
using an icon in the tool-tray.  Keen-eyed readers will notice that xwinclip
has failed with 'Could not open display'.

Functionally, this is as far as I've got.  I've been bogged down in pruning
the file tree trying to get the size down to 3-4mb.  Testing this has been a
bitch since it involves constant install/uninstall cycles.  I've got a
Lenten Reborn card on order.  When it arrives life will be much easier :-)

Rasjid Wilcox had a very similar idea to winfree86 named winxterm (see
http://lasp.sourceforge.net/winxterm/ ).  He has already produced a minimal
cygwin + xfree of about 4mb.  If we can integrate the two projects winfree86
(or whatever its called) will be available much sooner.

I hope I explained why winfree86 exists, and why it doesn't really fit into
the existing xfree-cygwin project.

cheers Matthew

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Faylor" <cgf@redhat.com>
To: <cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: seperate xfree project on sourceforge


> On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:58:13PM +1100, Matthew Donald wrote:
> >I'm in the process of setting up winfree86.
> >
> >Winfree86 is a minimal version of Cygwin + xfree86 + other code to
provide
> >an x-server for Windows.  It removes the requirement to install a full
> >version of Cygwin.  Also it pretties up the interface (removes the batch
> >window, integrates the config more closely into Windows)
>
> That is no longer a requirement with cygwin's new version of setup.exe.
>
> We routinely ask for volunteers in the cygwin project and I'm sure that
> the Cygwin XFree86 project would not turn help away.
>
> Why start up a separate effort?
>
> Did you have great ideas for cygwin's setup or for XFree86 that were
> brutally shot down?  Or, did you decide that the only way to get things
> done was to essentially fork both projects?
>
> cgf
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Suhaib Siddiqi" <ssiddiqi@inspirepharm.com>
To: <cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: seperate xfree project on sourceforge


> I never heard anything about it?  I do not understand why a separate
project
> is needed?  Due to GPL requirements of Cygwin, your download site wont be
> small.  You will need to host all the source codes.  My advice is join the
> developers list at xgree86.cygwin.com and contribute directly to this
> project.  Forking projects does more harm then good.
>
> Suhaib