Re: xorg installation fails, 99% complete only

[Roboco Sanchez <roboco at gmail dot com>]

Christopher Faylor <cgf-no-personal-reply-please <at> cygwin.com> writes:

> 
> On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 04:31:53PM +0000, Roboco Sanchez wrote:
> >The setup.exe should do the installation job properly.
> >[snip]
> >As for what our two develpers said, I do respect them for what they do
> >for us but I wouldn't tell my users to shut up like that.  Being a
> >volunteer doing things for people for free doesn't give you the right
> >to do that.
> 
> Did you *read* what Bobby said about Alexander?  Why didn't you jump to
> Alexander's defense if you respect him so much?
> 
> Or does being a user of free software does give someone the right to
> insult a developer?  That seems pretty one-sided to me.
> 

Yes, I did read what Bobby said. His post wasn't meant for Alexander. He was 
responding to Daniel who previously "just wanted to add" something to the 
discussion. From my view it was meant for the users and for the Cygwin "team" or 
the "management" not a particular developer. Like I said I think what Bobby said 
was perfectly all right and reasonable. I was also adding something the the 
discussion just like Daniel did. I saw what he added as useful to both users and 
developers. To users it indicated that there was some problem with the 
installation so everyone should be aware of. To developers this problem should 
be investigated and fixed. Also to developers he referred to a previous 
developer who he thought did a better job. Now I can understand most people 
would be upset if anyone tell you they think someone did or can do a better job 
but if I was a developer here I would just listen to what Bobby said, be 
open-minded, and think, because he might be right. I have been installing/using 
Cygwin for years and this is the first time I have a problem. I thought Bobby 
might be thinking the same thing before suggested that.

> >You need the users and the users need you.
> 
> You somehow think that there is a flow of obligation going from me to
> you?  You're very wrong.  You are benefitting from my efforts and
> Alexander's efforts.  I am not benefitting from your efforts in any way.
> 
> That is not true of some users here who are capable of sending bug
> reports or providing constructive feedback without pontificating.  Since
> I care about cygwin, I do appreciate when people can provide feedback
> without whining and without insulting the people who have donated their
> time to help them.
> 
> You have no rights here.  Sorry.
> 

I was talking about users and developers in general. I didn't say that you 
needed me. I said that you needed the users. But since you have shown your 
typical developer attitude I should make this point clearer. Every user of your 
free software has contributed somehow to your project. They don't have to be 
here to show that they are contributing. Just if they download and install and 
use your software is enough. Why? These people although they don't come here to 
praise you or give their supports to you when they don't find bugs/problems in 
your software they are still helping you testing the software for you. Their 
absence here tells that the software works for them althouth some just don't 
bother to come here no matter they found a problem or they have fixed it 
themselves or maybe they are in some other places like IRC channels, forums, 
usenet, etc. As for those who come posting questions, they may not be "capable 
of sending bug reports or providing constructive feedback without pontificating" 
in your eyes but they are making contribution to your project. Not all of them 
really need help. Some are just reporting bugs/problems so that they can be 
fixed and everyone can be happy both users and developers. I was in this type of 
users when I was confirming this problem. You said that I'm benefitting from 
your efforts and Alexander's efforts, that is ture. But when you said you are 
not benefitting from my efforts in any way, that is not true. I spent time and 
efforts to download files and test the installation and I spent time to report 
that here. Should I have to go through all this had the setup.exe worked 
properly? No. I didn't really need those X components from Cygwin I only needed 
the C compiler and I usually do "install everything" when I install any 
software. I found the problem so I came here and found other users with the same 
problem then I did more tests in order to confirm the problem here. I don't mind 
you are not appreciating what I did but I want you not to forget that this type 
of users does exist and you will appreciate their efforts or not is up to you 
but you should never underestimate their efforts. They may well call that an 
insult to them.

> >It is simple, you either do it your best or you don't do it at all.
> 
> Sorry, but that is simple-minded pap.  How can you judge what someone's
> "best" is?  So, if I can't give cygwin 100% of my effort, I should just
> abandon it?  Ridiculous.
> 

Everyone knows what their best is. No one is judging. Best doesn't mean 100% 
effort. No, you should't abandon.

> >There are people who can do better or have done better as Bobby
> >implied.  You should listen to what users have to say.  Not just praise
> >you also have to listen to criticism.
> 
> Whining about how no one is helping you and suggesting that the old regime
> did it better is not criticism.  It is complaining.  The difference should
> be pretty obvious.
> 

No one was whining about how no one was helping. I talked about the suggesting 
eariler above.

> >All can be constructive depends on how you look at it and how
> >open-minded you are.  You shouldn't tell your users to come do what
> >you're doing if they think they can do better.
> 
> And, you shouldn't invent scenarios to make your point.  No one said
> anything about telling users to "do what (I'm) doing".
> 

"If not then stop insulting me or do it better." <- That's what I meant, "do it 
better" what do you think that means?

> >That reminds me of politicians in some third-world countries.  You
> >should have done better in this case.
> 
> Funny, but your email reminds me a lot of a campaign speech, short on
> specifics, long on emotion.
> 

I have more about those politicians. Just waiting to see first if they are here.

> >They are not as genius as you otherwise they wouldn't be here asking
> >for help.
> 
> I think you may have missed the fact that I was responding mainly
> to Bobby's insult.  My message was specifically targetted to someone
> with whom I've interacted for years.  I have no idea who you are or
> why you take insult at a message which was not directed to you.
> 

Maybe the same reason you responded to Bobby post. My post wasn't entirely 
directed to you or Alexander. I was making a number of points to developers in 
general just like Bobby was saying he wouldn't be installing Cygwin until the 
problem's fixed to users and developers in general. I think of developers here 
as a team with proper structure, with management. I don't know if I am right or 
wrong about that but I would rather have my messages to the team replied by the 
management. I don't like seeing developers having to answer and handle all this 
stress while they should be developing/working. Or maybe you are the manager I'm 
talking about?

> >In fact I even gave more information.  Like, the error points were
> >different between archives from different mirror sites.
> 
> Again, you seem to be missing the fact that I was responding to Bobby,
> not you.  However, since you raise the point, let me say that this
> probably isn't very useful data either.  Neither setup.exe nor X are my
> responsibility but I can't imagine how the fact that something dies
> differently given different mirror sites would be useful data unless
> you rigorously tested each mirror site and verified that this isn't
> just something random.  But, that's probably just my genius talking.
> 

I have seen in other software package where there was problems when the mirror 
sites people were downloading were out of sync.

> Anyway, I think that's about as much as I care to respond to.
> 

Thanks for the response.

> Just as an observation, no matter how right you think you are, it's hard
> to see how any logical person would expect quality help from people who
> they have maligned.
> 
> "You're a slimy politician who won't listen to criticism and who should
> either be doing a better job or resign."
> 
> "Please help me."
> 
> Pretty funny.
> 

I know. This is typical of most people. You can refuse to provide good quality 
help to anyone you don't like. No one would force you to do otherwise. But if 
you have the duty to do it, you'll have to do it. If you don't then you won't. 
As for me, I wasn't crying for help as I've explained above. No one else was 
either. You can read my first post again if you don't believe. I know you don't 
have to believe and I know you can say that anyone can say this.

> Again, for the record, neither setup problems nor X problems are my
> responsibility.  I just step in when I see people being personally
> insulting towards one of the people who have donated their time to help
> them.
> 

I wanted to say something here but I think I'd better not.

> cgf
> 
>