Re: "shouted down", "shot down", apologies

[Brian Keener <bkeener at thesoftwaresource dot com>]

Christopher Faylor wrote:
> >>>If csv is the only/best way, does someone have a cookbook which will
> >>>allow me to setup a test environment, refresh the source, build
> >>>everything, make a change, test it out, submit a patch -- all while
> >>>keeping a working cygwin environment built off of setup.exe's download?
> 
> I was responding to this part.  It is at least a start for doing things.
> I'm sorry that this wasn't obvious.
> 
> However, if it is not adequate, then it should be improved, right?
> 
> This is similar to the "I already read the FAQ" post.  If this was
> inadequate then we need to know how so that it can be improved.  We
> don't know if the original poster already read this and found it
> inadequate or if he was completely unaware of its existence.
> 
> I guess this wasn't obvious from my response.  I promised to try
> to be more polite.  I didn't promise that I would not be terse.

You are correct - I had not thought of your original response in that light.  But 
you are right - we really do not know if he read or even knew of the FAQ.  That 
goes towards what I said - part of my understanding of the whole process comes from 
asking very pointed questions and not being to generic (which I do have a tendency 
to do as you can tell).

> >As someone who is trying to learn C++ and never really worked with it
> >much and as a contributor to the Cygwin project by contributing to
> >setup.exe these are questions that I and many others have asked before
> >at various times.  I have read the above links before and probably
> >missed where the answers to John's questions were located but as far as
> >I can tell there isn't a lot to get someone going on contributing to
> >Cygwin.
> 
> Ok.  Then this is a problem.  How would you like to fix it?  I did spend
> some time a while ago trying to augment the information there but this
> is obviously old hat to me and you are saying that it is inadequate.

All I was really trying to say is there is some general get started information, 
but for a real neophyte (and that is really the key) they end up aksing themselves 
where do I go from here.  That was probably my biggest problem - I like to think 
you won't find many people who will download cygwin, decide they like it and can 
use it to teach themselves C++, and want to contribute - and try to do it all at 
the same time from the beginning.  That was my problem.

> I guess the problem that I have with all of this is you almost never see
> anyone in the gcc, or gdb projects professing that cvs checkout and building
> to be a major obstacle.  I don't know what is so different about cygwin.

See my previous response but I will add here that you are referring to folks 
writing compilers and debuggers - not people simply trying to add something to 
setup.exe and learn C++ at the same time.  I realize that learning and contributing 
at the same time is probably not the best way - but I don't like having to think up 
projects to help me learn - setup was a good place to learn.

> This project seems to attract more "newbies".  Maybe the "oldbies" are all
> using linux and disdaining Windows.

I think this is a lot of it - I know it is in my case.

> >And while I have improved some of my techniques and even have some scripts to 
> >do some of the updates and such for me - there is no "cookbook" which is what 
> >he asked about.
> 
> IMO, There shouldn't really need to be any cookbook.

Just some step by step instructions - sometimes it's better to be over detailed 
than to leave information out.  I can always skip what I already know - but if it's 
not there I have to ask someone.

> 
> It should be as simple as following the instructions followed on:
> 
> http://cygwin.com/cvs.html
> 
> to check things out and then following the instructions in the FAQ under:
> 
> How do I rebuild the tools on my NT box?
> 
> to do the build.  (I forgot to mention the FAQ previously)
> 
> That is what I and many others do every day.  Once you have the tools
> checked out and configured, it should be this simple:
> 
> bash$ cd /src/winsup
> bash$ cvs update
> bash$ cd /bld/i686-pc-cygwin/winsup
> bash$ make
> 
> Why do you need a build script for this?

Your right - it shouldn't be tougher than that and for the most part for me now - 
it isn't.  As to the script(s) and why? - memory - I tried to make sure I had the 
documentation tools so my cvs update script handles cygwin, docbook-tools, and 
texi2html and the build script did a configure and the makes for me.  When you are 
learning it is a lot to remember.

> Brian, I am sorry that you are having problems but I don't appreciate
> this mystification of the whole process.  It is not that hard.  There

You are right - that is an over mystification and it has gotten easier.

> Very occasionally, you may have to wipe out your build directory and
> reconfigure (I've never had to do this but some people seem to think it
> fixes things).

I was having to do it a lot but I forgot that Earnie helped me fgind this one - I 
was doing a configure everytime I updated from cvs and then would do a make (which 
did sometime foul up big time) and then I was doing a configure and a make clean 
and it would leave stuff hanging around and Earnie pointed out I should make clean 
before I did the configure if I was going to do a configure.  That seemed to help a 
lot of my problems - sorry.

> I can see that people could have problems setting up their original
> environment.  The documentation could be improved there.  Once
> the environment is set up, however, it should be pretty easy to keep
> it going.

I would agree whole-heartedly - as my system has moved more to proper configuration 
and my knowledge has gotten deeper my system has stabilized as far as making 
changes and building.  Setup is really a key issue.

> 
> >Of course the fact I am on Win95 as many have pointed out and have no
> >clue what I am doing does not help.
> 
> I guess it is possible that Win95 is the source of your problem.  I
> do recall that you had strange problems building.  I hate to say this
> but you seemed to be the only one who had these problems.

That is usually the case with me - if someone will have all the problems it will be 
me.  But it may also be the number of people that are actually using this on Win95 
as opposed to NT.  This also goes back to my nature - I want it all - if there are 
5 options on something I want all 5.  I wasn't happy just learning C++ or working 
with cygwin - I wanted to learn C++, work with cygwin and contribute to setup too.

> You seem to be mystifying the process, again, however.  Testing cygwin
> should be accomplished by typing "make check".  Installing cygwin is
> tricky because you can't overwrite a running process.
> 
> So, what do you do?  You use the MS-DOS copy command to install it
> to your bin directory.  Or, you drag it there with the GUI.
> 
> The new cygwin dll is named new-cygwin1.dll because you don't want
> to create a cygwin1.dll while you're using the cygwin1.dll.

Thank you.

> And, then once you've figured all of this out, you can offer these
> pearls of wisdom to the mailing list as a modification to the FAQ or the
> user documentation or the web page.

Never miss a chance do you :-)

> >While the web pages and the FAQ do tell you how to get the source and how to 
> >send patches it really does not provide a cookbook.  I realize that we all like 
> >self starters and the major contributors do not like to have to answer these 
> >simplistic questions --- but those of us who are trying to learn and to help 
> >some times need a boost and a few pointers down the right path. 
> 
> The major contributors answer these questions all of the time.  That is
> how you learned.

I know and I thank you and all the others - but admit it - it is sometimes with 
mumbling under your breath because to you "oldies" it is so second nature and you 
might wait for us to ask a second time before answering.  But that goes along as 
well with the discussion we had here a while back about you making your presence 
less known (which by the way - does not appear to be in your nature ;-)) Sometimes 
you have to force us to look elsewhere for the answers and/or to dig deeper by not 
responding and for the most part we all understand that as well.

> This is another variation of the "This is what should be done" post.
> 
> I am exhorting people to think about how they can improve things.  The
> major contributors are professing burn-out.
> 
> If you think that the documentation is inadequate, then improve it.
> 
> Or, I guess, you can offer your observations here, and maybe someone
> else will be willing to improve it.

Yeah I guess it is a "You guys need to change this post" and I am sorry for that. 
I thought I was only offering an observation as food for thought and ended up 
offering way to much criticism and mystification.  I apologize and will conclude by 
saying - I really like Cygwin, I enjoy working with it and on the setup program and 
learning C++ in the process and I appreciate all the help everyone has given me.  
If I stepped on toes or fell into the "me to" or "*you* need to" trap - again I am 
sorry. 



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