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RE: Added setup.exe to User's Guide

> From: cygwin-owner at cygwin dot com [mailto:cygwin-owner at cygwin dot com]On Behalf
> Of Joshua Daniel Franklin

> >  IMHO my suggestions adds just that *tiny bit* of extra info
> > that makes a new user get the grip - without some of the FAQs.
> This is true, and makes me feel somewhat guilty since one of the goals I
> have for the Cygwin documentation is for it to be more accessible to new
> users.

 ;-) - Anyway; I'm glad to hear that...

> However, I think it needs to be organized properly. I hate reading
> Linux admin books that start out with how to use 'cp' and 'mkdir'.

 I can just agree with that...

> Instead, I need to make a 'If you are new to
> Unix' page with a link from the setup-net page.

 IMO; Don't _include_ the descriptions for 'cp' and 'mkdir' - instead find a
relevant pointer to earlier/ better/ whatever description. This is what I
wish I've had when I was a new user :-).
 Nor do I think the links have to be scattered all over the place. Not even
a separate page for Unix-newbies should be necessary IMO; unless I'm not too
mistaken there is a load of them elsewhere on the net.
 IMHO - just find a nice one and include a pointer to it e.g. something like
this, with the link replaced with a relevant one:
"If you don't understand the text that follows, you will have to look at for some basic knowledge."
 Another possibility; a nice google-search-link.

	Idea: Maybe define

"If you're new to cygwin and/or Linux/Unix; note that the information behind
links marked with the word NEWBIE might help to explain things."

	and then use

" NEWBIE: " wherever apropriate.

> While there is some of the gnostic knowledge attitidue to why all

 "gnostic" is a new word for me, do you mind to explain it to me (my
dicationary doesn't cover it).

> But I don't want to put up a page
> that gives a perfunctory description that someone will try, see that it
> doesn't work, and then give up or complain ("Cygwin is really crappy").
> I want it to be *right*.

 ... disfunctional descriptions are a pain for everybody ;-)

> > Example of the last:
> >  With minimal Internet online-time I have to pay
> > more than $100/month currently.
> >  I have no intention to increase the amount on those bills e.g. by
> > downloading the entire cygwin.
> <mean>So why don't you move?</mean>

 Doesn't help much, <mean> or not. That would need to be outside of Europe.
AFAIK all of northern EU, at least, has HIGH telecom fees. (I know for sure
about England/UK, Sweden, Norway and Finland. Guessing: Germany and France

> While I can't totally empathize since I've never had high Internet bills,
> until recently I was on US dialup (that's 53Kb down at best).

 I've been around since it was 2400 bps ;-) - believe me; that is slow.

> That's one
> reason I got involved with the cygwin-apps discussions, since it was so
> difficult to get the minimal installation I wanted. A lot of progress has
> been made, but there is still a lot to do.

 I wouldn't mind joining, but I might end up in a "sister-project" to
cygwin; the geekgadgets project for the Amiga. The idea behind it is almost
the same, but there are just a handful people developing it. (No wonder; it
has been decreasing since 1995 or some such - for obvious reasons).
 I currently have very little time for pet projects... (Undergraduate,
almost done w B.Sc EE)

> Thankfully, I now have  a broadband connection.

 Until a few months back it wasn't possible to get one where I live.

> > Am I that unclear in style of writing?
> > I find it alarming.
> It's not you, it's me. :)
> For some reason (I believe it was when I lived in Japan, since
> you are often
> rewarded for being vague there), I have developed a habit of throwing
> hints at people when I know what I want. I need to stop.

 Ah... I believe I'm the type of person you need to be straight forward with
 ;-) that could be "incompatible types" :-].
(Many Finns and Swedes are like me, I believe.)

> What I meant, is:
> Can you give some links to posts that were helpful to you?
> To a lot of us on the list, how setup.exe works is much more intuitive now
> than it was a long time ago. Some posts are what we would consider obvious
> information, but a revelation to a newer user.

 Well, I'll try to look up some that might be useful - time permitting.

> On Mon, Mar 24, 2003, Hannu E K Nevalainen (garbage mail) wrote:
> > Well, now to the collection of words; something like this, maybe:
> Thanks for providing this. A couple suggestions from experience:
> --Provide examples

 I knew it wasn't perfect. ;-) IMO this kind of texts can take ages to
perfect. The suggestions you had about giving examples is one refinement,
quite obvious in hindsight. Using English doesn't help me either ;-) and I
suppose text in Swedish wouldn't be acceptable? ;-)

> I will probably add something similar when I get the chance. If you'd like
> to look at the actual source used to create the Cygwin webpages,
> it's here:
> <
>  -net.sgml?cvsroot=src>
> A real 'diff -up' might be applied directly. :)

 Yes I know...

> Because of your Internet connection misfortunes, however, I suspect that
> very large downloads of all the build tools are somewhat beyond your
> If you're wanting to help with the documentation, send me your address
> and I'll mail you a CDR (with sources to comply with the GPL).

 Ahh... downloading packages is no problem (I have means to get it on CDR).
Getting CVS contents - maybe not syncing it - might be a bigger trouble,
I've never tried it.

> As a final note, I want to encourage everyone to keep sending thoughts to
> the list. The discussion is very helpful, and though I have a limited
> of time I plan to work on improving the Cygwin documentation long-term.

 Time seems to always be a culprit... But my experience is coincident wih
yours; discussions brings things forth, might it be slow and time consuming.

/Hannu E K Nevalainen, Mariefred, Sweden


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