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Re: Anyone tried SystemTap with the latest RHEL5 Beta refresh


On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 11:54:04AM -0800, Vara Prasad wrote:
> Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:
> 
> >Hi -
> >
> > 
> >
> >>fche wrote:
> >>[...]
> >>   
> >>
> >>>Unfortunately, other customers prefer that systemtap's loose
> >>>dependencies (particularly, the kernel-debuginfo) not be installed by
> >>>default, even if they choose an "install everything" option at the
> >>>anaconda screens.  [..]
> >>>     
> >>>
> >
> >varap wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> >>O.k, before i think of a way to satisfy both the needs i need to 
> >>understand the objection of the other group.
> >>   
> >>
> >
> > 
> >
> >>The objection of other customers to not to install debuginfo package is 
> >>it because of wasted disk space due to large size of debuginfo package 
> >>or time to install or something else.
> >>   
> >>
> >
> >All those, plus the manual way in which RHEL debuginfo packages are at
> >present published.
> > 
> >
> Well if my memory serves well Elena's plan for RHEL 5 is not to go 
> through this manual step. She tried her best to eliminate for RHEL 4 but 
> it didn't work due to some reasons of packaging i am not aware but the 
> assurance she had from the packaging team was in RHEL 5 it will be 
> available as part of the install media. If you want I can reopen the 
> issue tracker for this.
> 
> I am fine to install only kernel debuginfo package as a compromise and 
> module debuginfo package doesn't need to be installed although we should 
> also make it available on the install media.
> 
> > 
> >
> >>I am assuming kernel debuginfo is considered a dependency for
> >>SystemTap, am I right?
> >>   
> >>
> >
> >It is a loose dependency, in that the RPM does not list it as such
> >(any more), and that it is theoretically possible to run some scripts
> >without kprobes, and thus without dwarf data.
> > 
> >
> How many of our example scripts and tapset probe points i can use 
> without debug info package, my guess not much, so how a customer can 
> even experiment if they can't use the examples system comes with.
> 
> > 
> >
> >>What is the point of installing a package that doesn't work due to
> >>lack of dependencies?
> >>   
> >>
> >
> >Among other reasons, it simplifies the task of the person overseeing
> >an initial installation.  
> >
> Well if a person wants a simplified install of limited packages you can 
> go through custom install and choose the packages you like, that is what 
> normally i do if i don't care for the default install.
> 
> >They may not want systemtap as such, merely
> >use the "everything that is on this CD" option as a time-saver.
> > 
> >
> 
> As mentioned above for RHEL 5 we need to make debuginfo package readily 
> available as part of the install media, if we have any chance of getting 
> feedback from real end users (not just developers). I personally think 
> the default install should have SystemTap package and required 
> dependencies installed but for those who don't want that we should let 
> them opt out.  Competition is already installing the full package as 
> part of the default install, if we make it difficult to use we will loose.
> 
> I agree for FC installation we could avoid installing debuginfo package 
> as the space for those small setups is significant.

If we want people to use systemtap, then we need to make it easy for them
and get it running right out of the box, i.e right after the system is installed.
If we want systemtap to be successful, we need to listen to the users of Systemap.
I am sure no body disagrees with this point which is being debated over here.

Some of the difficulties that I see people face are
1) Debuginfo RPM is not part of the standard CD's or the partner released ISO's. If it is not part of the 
standard CD, people are not going to google for debuginfo and install it. Also in the lab's where
people debug the RHEL releases, accessing outside the corporate firewall is restricted and hence
people can not google for the debuginfo rpm even if they want to.

2) When the kernel is updated via RHN, there is no automated way to update the 
corresponding debuginfo RPM's as this is not available via RHN.

3) Also for people who are willing to spare 300MB for installing debuginfo rpm we need the
installer support which will install this while installing the OS.

-Anil


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